[AG-TECH] Biamp as echo canceller ?

[Andrew Daviel]

I did an AG install some years ago, when the recommended echo canceller
hardware was the Gentner XAP. For some reason I forget now, I chose the
Vortex EF series instead which seemed very similar in concept and
capabilities. So I'm familiar with both those product lines.

We have had a proposal from a consultant to upgrade our auditorium
systems, which is a multi-purpose venue - some local audio reinforcement
for local meetings, some Evogh video, some H323, speakerphone, playing
movies etc. We currently have an EF2241 with no spare channels.
The consultant wants to use a Biamp AudiaFlex system, which I've never
heard of.

Is that a step up/down/sideways or just different ?

One thing we want to do is have some control from a Crestron system. I'm
not sure exactly what, but switching video sources is one, and being able
to set the audio reinforcement gain from the podium is another. For our AG
install, Crestron seemed like overkill and expensive so I didn't go there.
Vortex runs standalone with programming/monitoring over RS232 from a
Windows application, and boasts some kind of optional passthru module
that's supposed to work with Crestron.

[Todd Zimmerman]

Hey Andrew,

I've used many Biamp's and have been happy with all of them. Biamp
Nexia's are good for smaller room setups - Audiaflex's are much better
for larger venues (more inputs/outputs).

One slight difference is the programming. With the Biamp you can custom
build the entire signal path and add whatever processing/mixing etc you
want. You can add mixers, controls (auto gain, levelers), compressors,
etc etc as required. Its a little more complex than the Clearone's but
way more powerful in the customization sense.

On the echo cancelling side, I feel the Biamps do a better job than the
Clearone's - but then I haven't used a Clearone in a while.

In my opinion, the Biamp is at least equivalent to the Clearone. I would
argue that it is a step up.

Send a note if you want any more info.

Todd

Post by Andrew Daviel
I did an AG install some years ago, when the recommended echo canceller
hardware was the Gentner XAP. For some reason I forget now, I chose the
Vortex EF series instead which seemed very similar in concept and
capabilities. So I'm familiar with both those product lines.
We have had a proposal from a consultant to upgrade our auditorium
systems, which is a multi-purpose venue - some local audio reinforcement
for local meetings, some Evogh video, some H323, speakerphone, playing
movies etc. We currently have an EF2241 with no spare channels.
The consultant wants to use a Biamp AudiaFlex system, which I've never
heard of.
Is that a step up/down/sideways or just different ?
One thing we want to do is have some control from a Crestron system. I'm
not sure exactly what, but switching video sources is one, and being able
to set the audio reinforcement gain from the podium is another. For our AG
install, Crestron seemed like overkill and expensive so I didn't go there.
Vortex runs standalone with programming/monitoring over RS232 from a
Windows application, and boasts some kind of optional passthru module
that's supposed to work with Crestron.

[Lloyd Pearson]

Hello Andrew,

We've run several BiAmp Nexia VC's around our campus and found that they do an excellent job on the echo cancellation front. Very flexible in configuration and easy to adjust using a web interface. We also have the RS.232 port in use for remote mic on/off.

Clearone are not my favourites: We have Converge 560's and a 590 in use but they are almost impossible to get operating well for echo cancellation. They will reduce the volume and cut the bass from a local talker when audio arrives from an external venue. They work fine when only one venue is speaking at a time, but paper noises, coughs or laughter etc cause this effect. All Clearone could suggest was to ensure the in/out levels were well matched. Despite careful adjustment, (which did give an improvement) I've not been able to get the quality of the Nexias. I've tested our Nexias with other Nexias and also with Clearone Interact units at other uni's and found the same fault on the Interact units. I've also found the fault on a couple of Clearone RAV900's but they at least could be adjusted to be acceptable.

Others may have had different experiences, and I'm hopeful that a reliable method for calibration will appear for the Clearone equipment. (I've tried using tone and pink noise for setting levels at both local and remote venues, and tested with a pre-recorded repeating voice test in both venues but couldn't fully eliminate the strangling effect.)

Of course, Clearone's other units may perform well but I've had no experience of those.

Regards,

Lloyd Pearson
eConferencing Specialist
Teaching & Learning Facilities, ITS
University of Otago
Dunedin
New Zealand

Ph [phone]
***@otago.ac.nz


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Daviel [mailto:***@triumf.ca]
Sent: Saturday, 4 May 2013 10:58 a.m.
To: accessgrid-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: [AG-TECH] Biamp as echo canceller ?


I did an AG install some years ago, when the recommended echo canceller hardware was the Gentner XAP. For some reason I forget now, I chose the Vortex EF series instead which seemed very similar in concept and capabilities. So I'm familiar with both those product lines.

We have had a proposal from a consultant to upgrade our auditorium systems, which is a multi-purpose venue - some local audio reinforcement for local meetings, some Evogh video, some H323, speakerphone, playing movies etc. We currently have an EF2241 with no spare channels.
The consultant wants to use a Biamp AudiaFlex system, which I've never heard of.

Is that a step up/down/sideways or just different ?

One thing we want to do is have some control from a Crestron system. I'm not sure exactly what, but switching video sources is one, and being able to set the audio reinforcement gain from the podium is another. For our AG install, Crestron seemed like overkill and expensive so I didn't go there.
Vortex runs standalone with programming/monitoring over RS232 from a Windows application, and boasts some kind of optional passthru module that's supposed to work with Crestron.

--
Andrew Daviel, TRIUMF, Canada
Tel. [phone] (Pacific Time)

[John I Quebedeaux Jr]

Hi all,

So, I have one room with a Nexia (vendor installed) and many rooms with
Clearone's (self installed/configured). The Nexia just seems to work once
i had the vendor get it configured properly (terminology between the Nexia
and Clearone was clearly different when i was attempting to discuss
settings with the technician doing the Nexia install) - but since it's in
an auditorium without boundary mics like we have in our conference rooms,
the echo canceling isn't particularly challenging. I.e. Only lapel/hand
held mics but it seems very robust and once set, just works

The clearones took a bit of fiddling and testing to get them just right
for me, but i figured that was because i was learning audio at that
time... but once set seemed to do fineŠ occasionally i have to reload the
settings from file when they seem to 'forget' things or go awry. My 11
year unit i do this regularly now unfortunately. I prefer the 400 and 800
series over the 560/590's as there is much more control in the
software/hardware and i can compress out the loud noises (coughs, etc.)
but then, i've been working with them a great deal longer and i don't have
direct control over the one nexia to give more that "yea, we have one
nexia and I forget we actually have it because it just works" feedback
(pun intended). I *really* don't like the dumbed down FLASH interface
(crashes my computers occasionally) interface on the 560/590's that
ClearOne is using nowadays.

Lloyd, can you verify on the volume/bass issue that the remote sites were
not generating any echo of your site or that your local audio isn't
crossed somewhere into the echo reference locally (off the top of my head
i forget what our 590 config looks like but i can check into it). Either
of those always causes issues like that for us with our clearone's, but we
have a 590 that seems to be working well in a small room - except that the
room has all kinds of ambient noises, so i have to crank the noise
canceling up. :-/

With the clearone's (since that's almost all i've worked with) I have to
agree sometimes it seems like voodoo audio science (probably because i'm
not an audio technician) when getting things configured because it's not
always obvious where the cause of the problem is. Michael Miller's
tutorials helped immensely back in the day i was setting those things up!

This doesn't really answer Andrew's question - but i thought i would toss
in my comments above.

Cheers,

-John Q.
--
John I. Quebedeaux, Jr.
Louisiana State University; Biological Sciences
Computer Manager LBRN; 437 Life Sciences Bldg.
Baton Rouge, LA 70803; 225-578-0062; http://lbrn.lsu.edu

Post by Lloyd Pearson
Hello Andrew,
We've run several BiAmp Nexia VC's around our campus and found that they
do an excellent job on the echo cancellation front. Very flexible in
configuration and easy to adjust using a web interface. We also have the
RS.232 port in use for remote mic on/off.
Clearone are not my favourites: We have Converge 560's and a 590 in use
but they are almost impossible to get operating well for echo
cancellation. They will reduce the volume and cut the bass from a local
talker when audio arrives from an external venue. They work fine when
only one venue is speaking at a time, but paper noises, coughs or
laughter etc cause this effect. All Clearone could suggest was to ensure
the in/out levels were well matched. Despite careful adjustment, (which
did give an improvement) I've not been able to get the quality of the
Nexias. I've tested our Nexias with other Nexias and also with Clearone
Interact units at other uni's and found the same fault on the Interact
units. I've also found the fault on a couple of Clearone RAV900's but
they at least could be adjusted to be acceptable.
Others may have had different experiences, and I'm hopeful that a
reliable method for calibration will appear for the Clearone equipment.
(I've tried using tone and pink noise for setting levels at both local
and remote venues, and tested with a pre-recorded repeating voice test in
both venues but couldn't fully eliminate the strangling effect.)
Of course, Clearone's other units may perform well but I've had no
experience of those.
Regards,
Lloyd Pearson
eConferencing Specialist
Teaching & Learning Facilities, ITS
University of Otago
Dunedin
New Zealand
Ph [phone]
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, 4 May 2013 10:58 a.m.
Subject: [AG-TECH] Biamp as echo canceller ?
I did an AG install some years ago, when the recommended echo canceller
hardware was the Gentner XAP. For some reason I forget now, I chose the
Vortex EF series instead which seemed very similar in concept and
capabilities. So I'm familiar with both those product lines.
We have had a proposal from a consultant to upgrade our auditorium
systems, which is a multi-purpose venue - some local audio reinforcement
for local meetings, some Evogh video, some H323, speakerphone, playing
movies etc. We currently have an EF2241 with no spare channels.
The consultant wants to use a Biamp AudiaFlex system, which I've never
heard of.
Is that a step up/down/sideways or just different ?
One thing we want to do is have some control from a Crestron system. I'm
not sure exactly what, but switching video sources is one, and being able
to set the audio reinforcement gain from the podium is another. For our
AG install, Crestron seemed like overkill and expensive so I didn't go
there.
Vortex runs standalone with programming/monitoring over RS232 from a
Windows application, and boasts some kind of optional passthru module
that's supposed to work with Crestron.
--
Andrew Daviel, TRIUMF, Canada
Tel. [phone] (Pacific Time)
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[Lloyd Pearson]

Thanks for your comments John.

I've tested with local venues which I've set up as well as remote venues all running Windows, both XP and 7. An occasional trap with WinXP has been a "Stereo Mix" or "Mono Mix" fader sending some incoming signal back out with the outgoing, and the echo cancellation devices can create strange effects, typically reducing the volume on every 2nd word. Enabling the microphone fader on the playback mixer also does this.
Windows7 audio controls seem to vary from being delightful to cantankerous: Plugging in another source is likely to change the input selection; sometimes helpful, but definitely not something you want happening during live performance or recording!

The level reduction/bass cut effect is often not observed as a lot of the meetings are very much one person speaking at a time. However when there is joking or witty interjections, the quick-fire responses make the problem very obvious.

Regards,

Lloyd Pearson
eConferencing Specialist
Teaching & Learning Facilities, ITS
University of Otago
Dunedin
New Zealand

Ph [phone]
***@otago.ac.nz

-----Original Message-----
From: John I Quebedeaux Jr [mailto:***@lsu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013 12:47 a.m.
To: Lloyd Pearson; Andrew Daviel; accessgrid-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [AG-TECH] Biamp as echo canceller ?

Hi all,

So, I have one room with a Nexia (vendor installed) and many rooms with Clearone's (self installed/configured). The Nexia just seems to work once i had the vendor get it configured properly (terminology between the Nexia and Clearone was clearly different when i was attempting to discuss settings with the technician doing the Nexia install) - but since it's in an auditorium without boundary mics like we have in our conference rooms, the echo canceling isn't particularly challenging. I.e. Only lapel/hand held mics but it seems very robust and once set, just works

The clearones took a bit of fiddling and testing to get them just right for me, but i figured that was because i was learning audio at that time... but once set seemed to do fineŠ occasionally i have to reload the settings from file when they seem to 'forget' things or go awry. My 11 year unit i do this regularly now unfortunately. I prefer the 400 and 800 series over the 560/590's as there is much more control in the software/hardware and i can compress out the loud noises (coughs, etc.) but then, i've been working with them a great deal longer and i don't have direct control over the one nexia to give more that "yea, we have one nexia and I forget we actually have it because it just works" feedback (pun intended). I *really* don't like the dumbed down FLASH interface (crashes my computers occasionally) interface on the 560/590's that ClearOne is using nowadays.

Lloyd, can you verify on the volume/bass issue that the remote sites were not generating any echo of your site or that your local audio isn't crossed somewhere into the echo reference locally (off the top of my head i forget what our 590 config looks like but i can check into it). Either of those always causes issues like that for us with our clearone's, but we have a 590 that seems to be working well in a small room - except that the room has all kinds of ambient noises, so i have to crank the noise canceling up. :-/

With the clearone's (since that's almost all i've worked with) I have to agree sometimes it seems like voodoo audio science (probably because i'm not an audio technician) when getting things configured because it's not always obvious where the cause of the problem is. Michael Miller's tutorials helped immensely back in the day i was setting those things up!

This doesn't really answer Andrew's question - but i thought i would toss in my comments above.

Cheers,

-John Q.
--
John I. Quebedeaux, Jr.
Louisiana State University; Biological Sciences Computer Manager LBRN; 437 Life Sciences Bldg.
Baton Rouge, LA 70803; 225-578-0062; http://lbrn.lsu.edu

Post by Lloyd Pearson
Hello Andrew,
We've run several BiAmp Nexia VC's around our campus and found that
they do an excellent job on the echo cancellation front. Very flexible
in configuration and easy to adjust using a web interface. We also
have the
RS.232 port in use for remote mic on/off.
Clearone are not my favourites: We have Converge 560's and a 590 in
use but they are almost impossible to get operating well for echo
cancellation. They will reduce the volume and cut the bass from a
local talker when audio arrives from an external venue. They work fine
when only one venue is speaking at a time, but paper noises, coughs or
laughter etc cause this effect. All Clearone could suggest was to ensure
the in/out levels were well matched. Despite careful adjustment, (which
did give an improvement) I've not been able to get the quality of the
Nexias. I've tested our Nexias with other Nexias and also with
Clearone Interact units at other uni's and found the same fault on the
Interact units. I've also found the fault on a couple of Clearone
RAV900's but they at least could be adjusted to be acceptable.
Others may have had different experiences, and I'm hopeful that a
reliable method for calibration will appear for the Clearone equipment.
(I've tried using tone and pink noise for setting levels at both local
and remote venues, and tested with a pre-recorded repeating voice test
in both venues but couldn't fully eliminate the strangling effect.)
Of course, Clearone's other units may perform well but I've had no experience of those.
Regards,
Lloyd Pearson
eConferencing Specialist
Teaching & Learning Facilities, ITS
University of Otago
Dunedin
New Zealand
Ph [phone]
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, 4 May 2013 10:58 a.m.
Subject: [AG-TECH] Biamp as echo canceller ?
I did an AG install some years ago, when the recommended echo canceller
hardware was the Gentner XAP. For some reason I forget now, I chose the
Vortex EF series instead which seemed very similar in concept and
capabilities. So I'm familiar with both those product lines.
We have had a proposal from a consultant to upgrade our auditorium
systems, which is a multi-purpose venue - some local audio
reinforcement for local meetings, some Evogh video, some H323,
speakerphone, playing movies etc. We currently have an EF2241 with no spare channels.
The consultant wants to use a Biamp AudiaFlex system, which I've never heard of.
Is that a step up/down/sideways or just different ?
One thing we want to do is have some control from a Crestron system.
I'm not sure exactly what, but switching video sources is one, and
being able to set the audio reinforcement gain from the podium is
another. For our AG install, Crestron seemed like overkill and
expensive so I didn't go there.
Vortex runs standalone with programming/monitoring over RS232 from a
Windows application, and boasts some kind of optional passthru module
that's supposed to work with Crestron.
--
Andrew Daviel, TRIUMF, Canada
Tel. [phone] (Pacific Time)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---
----
Get 100% visibility into Java/.NET code with AppDynamics Lite It's a
free troubleshooting tool designed for production Get down to
code-level detail for bottlenecks, with <2% overhead.
Download for free and get started troubleshooting in minutes.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap2
_______________________________________________
accessgrid-tech mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/accessgrid-tech
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---
----
Introducing AppDynamics Lite, a free troubleshooting tool for Java/.NET
Get 100% visibility into your production application - at no cost.
Code-level diagnostics for performance bottlenecks with <2% overhead
Download for free and get started troubleshooting in minutes.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap1
_______________________________________________
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