Discussion:
[AG-TECH] Questions on AG h.323 video conferencing
Andrew Danson
2014-04-28 04:46:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi Daniel,

Here's some answers to your questions.


1. Does the AG work with H323 endpoints?

In short no, and this is unlikely to change as they are very different systems.


2. We're looking for an easy, no cost, non-commercial, direct IP dialing way to connect to h.323 endpoints using a simple client (preferably portable but not entirely necessary) in Windows. I've tried OpenH.323, TalkEZ and Ekiga. No solid, repeatable results. It has to be simple enough for novices, too. Click, type an address and go. Can AG be a simple solution? If so, how?



I've not tried H323 with these clients but I have had success with Jitsi and Cisco's Jabber Video client for connecting to SIP based video conferences. It might be worth seeing if they also work with H323. You could use Seevogh as it has this capability. Whatever you choose be sure to test it with all the different types of hardware you need to connect to as some devices are better with different software.



AG is very flexible but certainly not a simple solution. It isn't really a good replacement for anything you could do with skype. What it does do well is link larger rooms together with many cameras and changing requirements. It is not something ordinary people will be able to use on a work station.



3. Not including the above on h.323, what if any encryption does AG support? I'm also looking at direct medical use, including non-h.323 solutions. Medical use, by U.S. HIPAA law, necessitates encryption by its privacy protection intent.



This is quite the complex question! There is some encryption and security capability, but it mostly secures access to the venue server and the venues. The tools that actually send and receive the audio and video do not have encryption support as far as I know, so someone sniffing the audio/video packets could easily listen. You could tunnel that traffic through secure VPN connections but that's a royal pain because the Venue server effectively can dynamically allocate multicast addresses to a venue. You could of course modify Vic and Rat (the tools used for audio and video) to support and use the encryption needed, but that isn't a quick job. You'd also need to run your own separate servers for the VenueServer and Unicast Bridge so it could be resource intensive. In short it's possible, but it might be more work than you have time for.



I'm not aware of a video conferencing system supporting encryption of the audio/video, but not having looked for it I couldn't say.



4. A non-AG question string: If CalTech's EVO video conferencing platform was open source at one time, why can't I get the source code. Believe me, I have more than tried. If you're working with the commercial iteration of EVO, SeeVogh, and read this message, come on and give a guy some help to acquire the old open code. Also, what about EVO's predecessor, VRVS? Does anyone know where I can get the last known code? I'm not a coder. I have, however, learned that coders exist in the wild. A paradox is that they do not actually live in the same mental universe. They are fortunate.



I'm not sure about that one, but probably start by emailing or contacting someone associated with the original open code. I don't know if anyone currently involved with Seevogh had any involvement with the older code. Even if you get the code, you'll likely need to get someone to do a lot of work to make a workable solution, and likely would require running a server to support it. Probably much more expensive than just using Seevogh.



I hope this helps, I'm sure someone will correct me if I was wrong about anything :)



Cheers

Andrew
Jason Bell
2014-04-28 05:25:56 UTC
Permalink
G'day Daniel, Andrew and All

I thought I would add a few additional comments.

The Access Grid Tools (vic and rat) do actually support security encryption on the transmission feeds.

My memory is a little flaky on this, as it has been ages since I have used (and I would have done this only once or twice) transmission encryption. But I think in the Venue Server it can be configured to set encryption on a particular Virtual Venue. If you go to 'VIC' and/or 'Rat' menu options, you can see that there is a 'key' that can be used for encryption. I know if you run the media tools manually from command line, you can specify the security key.

Options: vic [-HPs] [-A nv|ivs|rtp] [-B maxbps] [-b netBufferSize] [-C conf]
[-c ed|gray|od|quantize] [-D device] [-d display]
[-f bvc|cellb|h261|jpeg|nv|mpeg4|h264] [-F maxfps] [-i ifAddr ]
[-I channel] [-K key ] [-L flowLabel (ip6 only)] [-l (creates log file)]
[-M colormap] [-m mtu] [-N session] [-n atm|ip|ip6|rtip]
[-o clipfile] [-Q (queries and lists input devices)] [-t ttl]
[-U interval] [-u script] [-v version] [-V visual]
[-x ifIndex (ip6 only)] [-X resource=value] [-j numlayers]
dest/port[/fmt/ttl]

Therefore, if you do some more digging, you should be able to find out how it all works.

In regards to CalTech's EVO or VRVS code was ever released to the public, I cannot say I was ever aware of this happening.

Also, I have seen a computer display get turned into a H.323 bridging system (basically screen share the display to both protocols) and then loop back audio to both. This is really messy and I don't recommend it too much to be honest.

If you are looking for a 'non-commercial' solution - have you had a look at 'http://bigbluebutton.org/'? It might be worth a look - at the very least.

Anyway - hope this additional information helps.

Regards,
Jason.


From: Andrew Danson [mailto:***@newcastle.edu.au]
Sent: Monday, 28 April 2014 2:47 PM
To: accessgrid-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [AG-TECH] Questions on AG h.323 video conferencing

Hi Daniel,

Here's some answers to your questions.


1. Does the AG work with H323 endpoints?

In short no, and this is unlikely to change as they are very different systems.


2. We're looking for an easy, no cost, non-commercial, direct IP dialing way to connect to h.323 endpoints using a simple client (preferably portable but not entirely necessary) in Windows. I've tried OpenH.323, TalkEZ and Ekiga. No solid, repeatable results. It has to be simple enough for novices, too. Click, type an address and go. Can AG be a simple solution? If so, how?



I've not tried H323 with these clients but I have had success with Jitsi and Cisco's Jabber Video client for connecting to SIP based video conferences. It might be worth seeing if they also work with H323. You could use Seevogh as it has this capability. Whatever you choose be sure to test it with all the different types of hardware you need to connect to as some devices are better with different software.



AG is very flexible but certainly not a simple solution. It isn't really a good replacement for anything you could do with skype. What it does do well is link larger rooms together with many cameras and changing requirements. It is not something ordinary people will be able to use on a work station.



3. Not including the above on h.323, what if any encryption does AG support? I'm also looking at direct medical use, including non-h.323 solutions. Medical use, by U.S. HIPAA law, necessitates encryption by its privacy protection intent.



This is quite the complex question! There is some encryption and security capability, but it mostly secures access to the venue server and the venues. The tools that actually send and receive the audio and video do not have encryption support as far as I know, so someone sniffing the audio/video packets could easily listen. You could tunnel that traffic through secure VPN connections but that's a royal pain because the Venue server effectively can dynamically allocate multicast addresses to a venue. You could of course modify Vic and Rat (the tools used for audio and video) to support and use the encryption needed, but that isn't a quick job. You'd also need to run your own separate servers for the VenueServer and Unicast Bridge so it could be resource intensive. In short it's possible, but it might be more work than you have time for.



I'm not aware of a video conferencing system supporting encryption of the audio/video, but not having looked for it I couldn't say.



4. A non-AG question string: If CalTech's EVO video conferencing platform was open source at one time, why can't I get the source code. Believe me, I have more than tried. If you're working with the commercial iteration of EVO, SeeVogh, and read this message, come on and give a guy some help to acquire the old open code. Also, what about EVO's predecessor, VRVS? Does anyone know where I can get the last known code? I'm not a coder. I have, however, learned that coders exist in the wild. A paradox is that they do not actually live in the same mental universe. They are fortunate.



I'm not sure about that one, but probably start by emailing or contacting someone associated with the original open code. I don't know if anyone currently involved with Seevogh had any involvement with the older code. Even if you get the code, you'll likely need to get someone to do a lot of work to make a workable solution, and likely would require running a server to support it. Probably much more expensive than just using Seevogh.



I hope this helps, I'm sure someone will correct me if I was wrong about anything :)



Cheers

Andrew
Christoph Willing
2014-04-29 23:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Just to confirm, individual venues can be set up use encrypted streams -
vic and rat are automatically started with the correct options.

About mixing AG & H323/SIP - they are not interoperable at a protocol
level. However, as Jason mentioned, it is possible though potentially
messy to bridge between the systems. We have our room set up to be able
do something like that pretty transparently. Basically we run an AG
session in the normal way; then we run a Cisco/Tandberg C40 whose (HD)
outputs are captured as if they were camera outputs. Our 2 cameras have
their outputs split so we can send both to the C40 (which can switch
between them).

Locally, we see anything connected to the C40 as well as AG connections
on our display. C40 participants can see our local cameras, but not
other AG participants directly. One of our cameras can point at our
display with all the AG participants on it so, if that is the camera
currently feeding the C40, then C40 participants have a view of AG
participants too.

The audio for both systems goes through the same echo cancelling system
(a bit tricky to set up initially but forget about it after that).

It works because we wanted a multi-purpose meeting room and spent the
time & money to do it. It definitely wasn't a case of casually putting
it together with a day's notice!

chris
G’day Daniel, Andrew and All
I thought I would add a few additional comments.
The Access Grid Tools (vic and rat) do actually support security
encryption on the transmission feeds.
My memory is a little flaky on this, as it has been ages since I have
used (and I would have done this only once or twice) transmission
encryption. But I think in the Venue Server it can be configured to set
encryption on a particular Virtual Venue. If you go to ‘VIC’ and/or
‘Rat’ menu options, you can see that there is a ‘key’ that can be used
for encryption. I know if you run the media tools manually from command
line, you can specify the security key.
Options: vic [-HPs] [-A nv|ivs|rtp] [-B maxbps] [-b netBufferSize] [-C conf]
[-c ed|gray|od|quantize] [-D device] [-d display]
[-f bvc|cellb|h261|jpeg|nv|mpeg4|h264] [-F maxfps] [-i ifAddr ]
[-I channel] [-K key ] [-L flowLabel (ip6 only)] [-l (creates log file)]
[-M colormap] [-m mtu] [-N session] [-n atm|ip|ip6|rtip]
[-o clipfile] [-Q (queries and lists input devices)] [-t ttl]
[-U interval] [-u script] [-v version] [-V visual]
[-x ifIndex (ip6 only)] [-X resource=value] [-j numlayers]
dest/port[/fmt/ttl]
Therefore, if you do some more digging, you should be able to find out how it all works.
In regards to CalTech’s EVO or VRVS code was ever released to the
public, I cannot say I was ever aware of this happening.
Also, I have seen a computer display get turned into a H.323 bridging
system (basically screen share the display to both protocols) and then
loop back audio to both. This is really messy and I don’t recommend it
too much to be honest.
If you are looking for a ‘non-commercial’ solution – have you had a look
at ‘http://bigbluebutton.org/’? It might be worth a look – at the very
least.
Anyway – hope this additional information helps.
Regards,
Jason.
*Sent:* Monday, 28 April 2014 2:47 PM
*Subject:* Re: [AG-TECH] Questions on AG h.323 video conferencing
Hi Daniel,
Here’s some answers to your questions.
1.Does the AG work with H323 endpoints?
In short no, and this is unlikely to change as they are very different systems.
2.We're looking for an easy, no cost, non-commercial, direct IP dialing
way to connect to h.323 endpoints using a simple client (preferably
portable but not entirely necessary) in Windows. I've tried OpenH.323,
TalkEZ and Ekiga. No solid, repeatable results. It has to be simple
enough for novices, too. Click, type an address and go. Can AG be a
simple solution? If so, how?
I’ve not tried H323 with these clients but I have had success with Jitsi
and Cisco’s Jabber Video client for connecting to SIP based video
conferences. It might be worth seeing if they also work with H323. You
could use Seevogh as it has this capability. Whatever you choose be sure
to test it with all the different types of hardware you need to connect
to as some devices are better with different software.
AG is very flexible but certainly not a simple solution. It isn’t really
a good replacement for anything you could do with skype. What it does do
well is link larger rooms together with many cameras and changing
requirements. It is not something ordinary people will be able to use on
a work station.
3. Not including the above on h.323, what if any encryption does AG
support? I'm also looking at direct medical use, including non-h.323
solutions. Medical use, by U.S. HIPAA law, necessitates encryption by
its privacy protection intent.
This is quite the complex question! There is some encryption and
security capability, but it mostly secures access to the venue server
and the venues. The tools that actually send and receive the audio and
video do not have encryption support as far as I know, so someone
sniffing the audio/video packets could easily listen. You could tunnel
that traffic through secure VPN connections but that’s a royal pain
because the Venue server effectively can dynamically allocate multicast
addresses to a venue. You could of course modify Vic and Rat (the tools
used for audio and video) to support and use the encryption needed, but
that isn’t a quick job. You’d also need to run your own separate servers
for the VenueServer and Unicast Bridge so it could be resource
intensive. In short it’s possible, but it might be more work than you
have time for.
I’m not aware of a video conferencing system supporting encryption of
the audio/video, but not having looked for it I couldn’t say.
4.A non-AG question string: If CalTech's EVO video conferencing
platform was open source at one time, why can't I get the source code.
Believe me, I have more than tried. If you're working with the
commercial iteration of EVO, SeeVogh, and read this message, come on and
give a guy some help to acquire the old open code. Also, what about
EVO's predecessor, VRVS? Does anyone know where I can get the last
known code? I'm not a coder. I have, however, learned that coders
exist in the wild. A paradox is that they do not actually live in the
same mental universe. They are fortunate.
I’m not sure about that one, but probably start by emailing or
contacting someone associated with the original open code. I don’t know
if anyone currently involved with Seevogh had any involvement with the
older code. Even if you get the code, you’ll likely need to get someone
to do a lot of work to make a workable solution, and likely would
require running a server to support it. Probably much more expensive
than just using Seevogh.
I hope this helps, I’m sure someone will correct me if I was wrong about
anything J
Cheers
Andrew
Christoph Willing
2014-04-30 00:19:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christoph Willing
Just to confirm, individual venues can be set up use encrypted streams -
vic and rat are automatically started with the correct options.
BTW, an example of this is the "Encrypted Room" available from the APAG
lobby. Enter the venue and when vic & rat start, you can confirm they
are using an encryption key that has been set up for that venue.

chris
Cook, Daniel (IHS/ALB)
2014-04-30 15:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Deep thanks to everyone who responded. Your comments helped clarify things quite well.

Please keep my e-mail. Anything you might run across in the future related to free and open-source h.323 that is known to actually work (even Ekiga does not work as advertised with h.323) then please let me know.

I'm familiar with the paid h.323 clients. My specific need was to find good free h.323 clients to match our existing infrastructure. I'm hoping they can be open source so that we can update the software ourselves. We need to find no-cost ways for our customers to connect with our resources. We serve the often poor/economically disadvantage aboriginal U.S. tribes. Monies that tries would spend on software may be better spent on meals, counseling, child care or education.

I'm trying to locate an old, one-off piece of freeware (no info on open source or not) windows client that I used about two years ago. It worked flawlessly. In case anyone may have a use, I'll report back with the name and home site once I find it.

Thanks once again.


Daniel L. Cook, MPHc, MA, CompTIA A+
Coordinator,
Telebehavioral Health Center of Excellence (TBHCE)
Indian Health Service
5300 Homestead Rd. NE
Albuquerque, NM 87110-1293
Desk:  505-248-4547

http://www.facebook.com/IHSAlbuquerque

-----Original Message-----
From: Christoph Willing [mailto:***@iinet.net.au]
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 6:19 PM
To: accessgrid-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [AG-TECH] Questions on AG h.323 video conferencing
Post by Christoph Willing
Just to confirm, individual venues can be set up use encrypted streams
- vic and rat are automatically started with the correct options.
BTW, an example of this is the "Encrypted Room" available from the APAG lobby. Enter the venue and when vic & rat start, you can confirm they are using an encryption key that has been set up for that venue.

chris

Loading...